Client Stories - The British Heart Foundation

In this episode we are thrilled to be joined by Kerry Smith - Chief People Officer and Julie Jones - Director of Talent and Organisational Development at the British Heart Foundation, who talk to Mayvin Director Sarah Fraser about the BHF's 'Leading Our Future' leadership development programme. Mayvin is very proud to have worked with BHF in the innovative design and delivery of this award nominated programme (the awards nights are coming up soon - please keep your fingers crossed!)

The programme included 120 senior leaders across the organisation and took place over approximately a year, including whole cohort community days, small peer group learning sets, collective inquiry events and 'masterclasses' on capability building.  

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Transcript

Sarah Fraser  01:41

Welcome to Mayvin Podcast, where we have Julie and Kerry from the British Heart Foundation. Welcome and thank you very much for joining us. 

Kerry Smith  01:52

Oh, we're pleased to be here. 

Sarah Fraser  01:54

Do you want to do a few introductions? Yeah, we can get into the detail of it. So Kerry, do you wanna go first?

Kerry Smith  02:01

Yes love to, thank you for inviting us to talk to you. So I'm Kerry Smith. I'm Chief People Officer for the British Heart Foundation.

Julie Jones  02:11

Hi, yes. And I'm Julie Jones. I'm the Director of Talent and organizational development at the BHF as well.

Sarah Fraser  02:16

Wonderful. And just in case people don't know on the podcast, I'm Sarah Fraser, and I'm director of Mayvin, and was part of the design and development and facilitation of the program, very much involved in the middle of it. So great to be with you and talking about it from slight distance, which feels there's still lots going on. I suppose we should start just talking a bit about the BHF British Heart Foundation. Do you want to share a little bit about what you do, what you get involved in,

Kerry Smith  02:44

Yeah, love to, love talking about the BHF. So British Heart Foundation we're the largest charities in the UK, and we, our mission and purpose is about supporting research into heart and circulatory diseases, and we're really proud of the fact that we fund over 100 million pounds worth of research across the across the UK in various research centers. And the BHF therefore has to raise all that money, so we spend all our time generating that income. We're entirely independently funded, so we have to generate that income. We do that through retail. We are the largest charity retailer in the UK, with over 750 shops and stores. So we're on virtually every high street. 

Sarah Fraser  03:37

On my High Street! 

Kerry Smith  03:38

Very good, yeah, and a good supporter and customer, no doubt,

Sarah Fraser  03:44

Dangerous with the kids. Oh, very dangerous going in there with the kids. 

Kerry Smith  03:47

Yes, dangerous for all of us. Lovely bargains. We all love a bargain. But also we have funding for the generosity of supporters through legacies. And also we fundraise in the ways that you would might expect. You know, typical fundraising activities and events, including our flagship event, which is the London to Brighton cycle ride, which we do on Father's Day each year. So lots of different ways, as well as kind of corporate partnerships and so on. So we've got lots of different ways that we raise money. But I think what Julie and I love about the BHF is that we we get to support the organization, to to raise, commercially, raise all that money, but then we also are involved in how we spend the money as well, which makes it a fabulous place to work and also a broad and complex place to work, doesn't it Julie? 

Julie Jones  04:40

It certainly does. 

Sarah Fraser  04:42

Yeah. I mean, I remember when we first sort of got to know you as an organization, and just understanding the scale of particularly the retail operation. And you know what's behind the face of the research that the British Heart Foundation does. And just being, yeah, quite amazed. Think people don't always realize quite how you raise all your money, and are able to do so much research. It's amazing. 

Kerry Smith  05:06

Yeah, I mean, as an organization, we're just shy of being around a 500 million pound turnover organization. We've got all of that together. You know, we are, as I say, we're a big business. We are one of the biggest charities in the UK, and we have a very broad, multi disciplinary mix of talent and people and colleagues across the organization as a result, to work with, which makes my job and Julie's job incredibly interesting anddiverse and diverse.

Sarah Fraser  05:41

Very good. Thank you for that. What we thought we'd do, we were talking about this before we but should we do a bit of a check in before we get into talking about the program? You had a suggestion, Kerry, I liked your suggestion. What was your What was the question you were gonna ask? 

Kerry Smith  05:52

Well, because we're talking about leadership, aren't we, it's kind of, you know, one or two words of wisdom from the around what makes great leaders or what makes us interesting leaders, maybe. What about you go first on that Sarah? 

Sarah Fraser  06:11

I think for me, it's the balance between building really like being really personable, and sort of being able to build those relationships where people feel safe as well as being really straight, yeah, and getting the balance between those two right, which I definitely don't always do, but that's the balance. I sort of feel like I'm always trying to try to find Yeah,

Julie Jones  06:34

That's very wise words. Wise words, yeah. So yeah. I think there's something for me about being authentic. So just kind of, you know, through through your career, you often find that you're playing a role, or you're behaving in a way you think you should behave. And I think sort of later on in my career, you start to sort of surface and realize who you are and show up as you and I think that's the most important thing. And I was thinking about this when Kerry mentioned it, and I was thinking one of the things for me as well, that well that is important is having a sense of care for the people that you you lead, so showing up through kindness, I think. And that kindness doesn't necessarily mean being soft and fluffy and always kind of, you know, patting them on the back and everything. It's actually just about being clear, you know, but doing it from a point of you care for that person, even if it's giving them tough feedback, you're doing it from a point of kindness. And for me, that's always kind of been quite important in the way that I lead my teams as well. Butyeah

Kerry Smith  07:29

Yes, that's lovely, and I very much see that with you as well as a leader. I think from my perspective, I completely, I would say the same as both of you actually in terms of bringing yourself into that leadership so being authentic, being yourself, I don't think you can hide and pretend to be something else. You know for very long, we might all you know, want to be somebody that we're not, but actually, at the end of the day, it's really important that you're true to yourself and that you bring your own personal style to that kind of leadership role, but I think the other thing is learning. I don't think if you're a leader who feels that you've learned everything there is to learn, then I would wonder, I would wonder about you. But for me, I feel I learn something new every day. And that can come from all different sources, but I would say a lot of it comes from my own team. So I learn a lot from my from working with my team, listening to my team, working with them, understanding, you know, the depth of research, or, you know, insight that they might bring to the table. So I think the world of work is changing so much and so rapidly that, you know, even though I've been in HR for 30 years, I do not think... 

Sarah Fraser  08:50

My God it's changing now.

Kerry Smith  08:52

I feel like I've still got so much to learn about the world of work and the future

Sarah Fraser  08:59

It feels like it's quite a nice segue into the talking about the program, because the program was really not about assuming anyone knows what an ideal leader should look like as a foundation. It was, you know, thinking about the conversations and where we started, and saying, you know, where are we trying to get people to and that being an inquiry in itself, even as we sort of stepped into those first initial conversations with you, but I wonder, do you want to say something about where you know, where the need for the program or the kind of drive to find something new different came from maybe starting a platform,

Julie Jones  09:42

Yeah so essentially, the program came out, sort of, I suppose, post the pandemic, really, there was a lot of kind of learnings from the pandemic, some really positive things that came out from that where we saw the kind of leadership we needed, and where it kind of really thrived in a moment. Where, you know, there was a lot of ambiguity, there's a lot of new challenges that we were facing that we'd never faced before. So I think what we saw then, as the type of leadership that kind of surfaced to the top and really made the difference was those that felt comfortable with ambiguity, that were able to lean into the unknown, essentially inspire their teams go with them and so on, and navigate that, that whole journey. So I think those sort of things, we were starting to think we need to really amplify this so that we have the agility across the organization. Because we didn't know what was around the corner. We had the cost of living crisis as well. There was all new challenges that we still you know, there may be more that come around the corner. We still don't know what's what's heading so there was something about kind of really magnifying what we saw as a real gem, you know, in that learning. And I suppose the other thing was the kind of, the change in the way we worked as well meant that our leaders became a bit more dispersed and less connected, I guess, as a result of this, as well, as they weren't in the office, literally, yeah, exactly. And we, and we changed the way we worked, you know, as most organizations did, you know, we, we kind of embraced that as well as all the benefit and that flexibility, but we also recognize there are, there's a downside to that, and there's a flip side to that. And we were starting to see that there were the connections that were were formed previously and were more solid, were starting to become a bit more fragmented. So, so there were things around, you know, magnifying the brilliance of what we've seen, yeah, as well as kind of leaning into the challenges that it had started to kind of surface, and the differences that we were starting to kind of work with across the leadership teams. 

Sarah Fraser  11:33

The pandemic was such a shock to the system for so many organizations that, you know, lots of the programs that we've done over the last few years have been, you know, how do we, how do we move forward? And, you know, take some of what was really great in terms of shift and doing things differently as a result of the pandemic, without that elastic of going back, just assuming we need to go back. Because actually, there was some really good learning, good challenge in terms of, as you say, leading in ambiguity, actually, having to do things differently, having to learn to really work in a, in a hybrid context. And how can we build that into the way that we work long term, and take this and that you really saw that in the way that you gave us the briefing and said, you know, this is what we want to build on, definitely, yeah, definitely, anything you'd add to that in terms of, kind of why, then what was important, what you wanted from it, as you start, sort of started to look for someone to partner with you.

Kerry Smith  12:33

I mean, Julia's covered it really nicely. I think the, you know, from from my perspective, we found that there were some qualities, if you like, that emerged through the response to the pandemic in our leaders that shone through, and some of those qualities we hadn't necessarily identified before. So you know, personal resilience, able to deal with ambiguity and embrace it, and that kind of trust, if you like, as well of kind of going into something, going into the unknown together. And actually, there was an agility that the organization hadn't seen before, because we had to respond very quickly to a very live and ongoing situation. And so, you know, we started to identify that, you know, these, Julie said, you know, these were traits of a leader that we needed to embed, and, you know, hardwire in, if you like, to the organization, so that we all could benefit from this. Because I think, you know, world was turned upside down in 2020 and we knew that, therefore, that anything could happen. So you've got to be prepared for anything might happen. So it's, you know, looking into the future being a little bit more outward looking as an organization as well. And I'm sure, like many organizations, pre the pandemic, were a little bit inward looking, you know, we looked at what we did and how we could perform, but didn't necessarily look at what was going on, what others were doing. And I think, you know, that shone a light on the whole situation, shone a light on how important it was to look beyond. So I think, you know, bringing all that together, combined with that reconnection, that Julie's, you know, articulated, was really quite important. So it is that kind of repair, isn't it, of, you know, repair where we you know, what the the disconnect has been created, and then start to prepare us for what might lie ahead, whatever that might be.

Julie Jones  14:27

Yeah and I think it was moving away from being kind of planning for the future as opposed to preparing for the future 

Sarah Fraser  14:33

There was just like different mindset and sort of shifting away from that, that sense of developing, you know, leaders, or developing a leadership approach. And you're in an organization which is about having a way of approaching change, or having a way of leading people that, yeah, you know, is assumed it will work if you do this, then you'll get this result, yeah. And, you know, the the conversation around leadership shifting massively away from from those kind of models, and instead about actually, how do I know myself? How do I know how I turn up, and how do I know how I as a leader, respond to ambiguity, respond to change, and can bring people with me in that yes, in leading through that yeah, and very maybe slightly more bringing a bit more vulnerability into that, being a bit more awareness into that, yeah, as well, and saying that's okay. And actually that's what helps to build the relationships, the connection that you're talking about, Julie, as you, as you're leading people in in challenging, difficult times.

Kerry Smith  15:36

And I think as a as a result, I agree with all of that, as a result, we were looking, we needed to look for something that was going to be a little bit more sophisticated than a skills based program. Because all that we've just been talking about there, you know, this is, this is complex. This isn't, you know, it's multi dimensional. It's hard to pin down, and a lot of it is behavior as well as competence and capability. So, you know, we were looking for something a bit more sophisticated. And we've done previous development programs for our leaders before that were much more traditional, by by nature, wouldn't you say, Julie? 

Julie Jones  16:16

Yeah, definitely. But I think it was also reflective of where we were as an organization, I think, you know, as kind of the the sort of organizations became more mature over the last few years, or different, different in the way that we worked, and different approaches, I think it started to kind of shift the the the needs of the the leadership community as well. So, and I think, you know, we, you know, we've talked about the pandemic, but that really kind of started to kind of sort of flex the muscles in our leadership community in a different way, I guess. So you started to see a different need there 

Sarah Fraser  16:49

That need for agile, and that need for a bit more connection, and that need for sort of turning really, turning up authentically, absolutely. 

Julie Jones  16:55

Yeah definitely, yeah. 

Sarah Fraser  16:57

So then that you've kind of touching on it there, but I'm, I'm curious to know. And we've, we've talked about this a bit previously. But why? Why Mayvin? Like, when we then met and we started exploring some ideas, and it was quite a gradual process, I think I would say, of coming together and sort of thinking, actually, how could we do this? But, but, yeah, what I don't know piqued your interest, I suppose, as we started the conversations?

Julie Jones  17:21

So I think, I mean, some of the things that we wanted to do, as Kerry has kind of already alluded to, we wanted to do something different, you know, we weren't looking for a more traditional program. We did want to kind of just, you know, do something a bit more unique, a bit more innovative, a bit more sort of embedded in in cultural change as well. So we weren't looking for a program to develop managers and leaders in a particular way. We were looking to actually shift the culture of the organization. So we wanted something a lot more deep rooted, I think, in what we were trying to achieve. I think the the approach that that Mayvin came with was was very much kind of using and working with the challenges of the organization. So you actually saw a shift while you were kind of going through the program and and also I think that it reflected what the change we were trying to make. So we were trying to create a leadership community that was comfortable with ambiguity, and the program wasn't so set out that we knew exactly what was coming. It was kind of the program fed the program, if you like. So as it, as it emerged, we started to kind of shape it 

Sarah Fraser  18:28

Which was challenging as well! 

Julie Jones  18:29

It was challenging, but it was really exciting, and it really kind of reflected, you know, the change we were trying to create as well. So we wanted the program to feel, or people on the program to feel the change we were trying to achieve, I think so, and experience it. And that wasn't always comfortable for people, but it was very much an important part of the experience we wanted to create. So it was so again, we talked about authenticity as well. I think it was, it was about the program being authentic to what we were trying to achieve. 

Sarah Fraser  18:58

Yeah, it definitely had that sense of double duty, didn't it? Yes, we were really working within ambiguity as we were developing, designing the program. Yep, just that sense of us working in partnership with you. It was a real we had to really work together. We weren't coming to you with here's a fully formed program, and this is what we think you should do. No, we, you know, we were in the room together, working it out, yeah, and working out, how do we bring, you know, the whole leadership community with us on this journey as well.

Kerry Smith  19:29

I was gonna say I was quietly quite, quite scary, actually, yeah, because, you know, when you talk to partners that are going to work with you on a leadership program, you kind of want to see a road map. You want to see a kind of model. This is what you're going to go these number of workshops. And, you know, then we'll have some action learning, and then we'll have a bit of development and valuation. So I say, you know, got all of that going on, actually, we developed this with you, and I think that's what so back to your question, that is what attracted us to you as well, because we could see that you would co create something with us, and we didn't want to just, you know, buy, if you like, an off the shelf, mapped out model that regardless of whether it suited us, we would need to put people through. And there was a comfort in that, as I say, yes, but actually, we were looking for something, as Julie says, you know, more more sophisticated, more tailored to what we were looking for, and something that was going to help us to embrace, you know, the change that we needed. So it wasn't just a leadership development program we're looking for. We were looking for support to enable the organization to build more change resilience. So how can we manage and lead change? And I think the other thing to say about yourselves as well is the fact that whilst you, you know, came to us with that kind of experience of co creating and doing something different, you also came from a solid base of knowledge and research, and, you know, academic rigor, actually, as well as some practical tactical experience. So we need, because we've described, you know, the BHF being a very kind of broad ranging organization with lots of different disciplines and types of roles. We needed to tick all the boxes with those. We needed a partner that would work with us, that had the breadth of commerciality, working with retail, working with our fundraisers, working with our marketeers, through to the solid academic background that would appeal to our academics and, you know, our researchers and yeah, so we needed a partner that had that breadth and scope, that could understand us as well and come with that level of rigor.

Sarah Fraser  21:59

Yeah, and that's, that's always a balance to find, because Mayvin is sometimes perceived as quite, has quite an academic background and academic basis, and yet, in partnership with organizations, that's, that's like the kind of the grounding that underpins, The underpinning a way of working, yeah, and it's, it's something we, we can always come back to, but it's not what goes into the room, in the conversation, yes, which are at that, that real personal and individual level. And that's, I mean, it's what I loved about the work that we did together in developing the program. It was really creative. Yes, it felt, yeah. There were some moments which felt tricky, but we were really working with what was coming up in the groups, what was needed from the organization, for the organization at the time, you know? What does BHF need now? What is it grappling with? You know, what? What are leaders finding challenging? And I remember being in the room at the first big event. We did the big community event, yes, and having 120 people in the room and raising, you know, I think it came to six key issues that, you know, complex, what we call wicked problems, that everyone was sort of homing in on. And the the conversations around those, and the energy in the room on that day was just brilliant. That kind of created the threads, which then fed the conversations and inquiry going through the rest of the program. And just that was, that was a really exciting moment. 

Julie Jones  23:32

Yeah, it was particularly exciting, I think because, you know, we talked about the kind of disconnect that had been surfacing. It was the first time that leadership community had been together, yes, probably about three years, I guess, in person.

Sarah Fraser  23:44

Some people hadn't met, met each other before, had come in during the pandemic.

Julie Jones  23:49

Yeah, so I think the energy was very palpable in the room, partly because, you know, you could see those connections reforming. And you know, really, you know, people enjoying that in person experience as well, which I think has also, you know, cemented our approach to kind of how we want to bring people together in in person, as opposed to just virtually, you know, because that is something we're navigating as many organizations are.

Sarah Fraser  24:13

Yes, and that what's the purpose of bringing people together and to do that creative but challenging work where you're grappling with some of the most difficult problems. But it brings me to one of the things that I think was a thread throughout the whole program, which is one of your values around being brave. We talked, we've talked about that a lot, but it was, it was a really brave program. Yes, you know, both to sort of, you know, bring people with you on the program, but also to to, you know, develop a program around leadership, which was being sort of designed partly on as as we were responsively, yeah, what was going on.

Kerry Smith  24:51

Yeah, completely agree. I think the whole nature of the program was brave the way we co created it, as I say, to the scary waters with not having anything laid out for us but also then the questions we are we posed challenging questions. We knew our chief exec knew there were things that we were not facing into. There were unanswered questions as an organization that we, you know, arguably, you know, I didn't have the time for facing into or weren't brave enough to face into. You know, either way, we needed to start looking at them. And that event that you've just described was a great way to kind of surface. What were the things most on people's mind? We did lots of kind of mind mapping, didn't we? I remember the charts around huge on the wall, and it was really telling, because people just it didn't. Nobody was assigned to the comments. It was just put it up, make sure it's up. And there was a lot in there, and it started to distill what, as you referred to, 

Sarah Fraser  25:55

The theme so clearly came out, it wasn't, it wasn't difficult to draw them out on the day.

25:59

It was really good. And they became known as our wicked problems. And we love that, you know, because it, you know, it shows that we were prepared to face into the gnarly sort of problems that people tend to not face into because they just don't. They've no obvious solution to them, so it's hard to face into them. And when you do that at scale, yes, which we did with all our senior leaders together, it becomes even more of a kind of surface, wicked problem. So we loved that. And I think that then got got everybody excited and wanting to then help. And that said Julie's point about the reconnection that we needed to create. Suddenly there was a whole cohort of 100 and what? 30, yeah, yeah, 120, 130, leaders who actually were being united by the shared commonality of these wicked problems, and wanted to actually start to work together on the solutions, yeah, and play a part in it, yeah. And actually was a real excitement towards that wasn't there, yeah.

Sarah Fraser  27:03

And it even in starting the program in that way, I sort of it's interesting talking about because I think I see it in, you know, through some different lenses again. But even starting in that way, the bravery of starting, of starting a Leadership Program, by saying we're going to start with the problems that you see in and the challenges your leadership challenges in the organization. We're not starting with. Here's a vision of leadership that we know we can get to, and here's the idealized sort of future that we're going to get to. It's just like, let's start with the reality of what's here. Yeah, and but the responsibility is with you as the leadership community across the British Heart Foundation to think about how, how might you move forward on this? Not solve lots of conversations we're not trying to solve. These are wicked problems that are not, not easily solvable. But how do you make progress on these? And that's quite confronting, I think, as you know, on a on a program like that, it's like, Oh, I'm not going to be given the answer here in any way. I'm not being promised to be developed, in that sense, to get exactly where I need to go, but I am being given some tools and some ways of working with these really difficult challenges, I think, in a community,

Julie Jones  28:11

Yeah, and I think that also kind of set a tone in the program, and you're quite a respectful but empowering tone, where the leadership community that were going through the program were kind of challenged to be accountable for those problems, rather than necessarily have a have a fix for it, or be taught how to fix it, or anything. I think there was a respect that these were senior leaders that had brought their own experiences, brought their own knowledge, their own kind of attributes to it. But I think there was often that kind of mirror being held up when the when the wicked problems were surfacing, and all the challenges that was coming through, those conversations came up, it was almost like, Okay, so you've put that down. Now, let's mirror that back to you. What? What? What do you think we should do? How? How do you think we should take this, and what are you going to do about this? Yeah, so it wasn't a case of like the problems were put down and taken away for someone else to fix or to work through. I think it really kind of set that tone of empowering the people on the program to be part of the solution, I guess, and work through that as well. So I think that was that certainly came here for me on the program. 

Kerry Smith  29:18

But what's interesting about that is that's where the ambiguity came in. So here's a program that wants to, you know, build our resilience for ambiguity. And by the very nature of the program, we didn't we went into this not knowing what those wicked problems would be. We surfaced them as a group. We didn't have any solutions for them. So you're kind of putting something out there that becomes a problem for the organization to resolve that we don't have any obvious, you know, solutions to, you know, that's not but guarantee, I don't know what is at scale. So, you know, kind of empowering, as Julie says, empowering people to start to think about, okay, you might be able to fix this. But you can do something about it, or something with it, or start to put us in a takes us in a direction. So, what might that look like? What might that be? And so, so that kind of appreciative inquiry, almost, you know, kind of starting to ask ourselves some questions about, well, what if, and what could we do? And doing that as a group started to take us on to the next path. And I think what was interesting about the program itself, is it it, where it where it ended, is not necessarily where we expected it to, if you sort of mean, because we needed to keep kind of changing the course of adjustments. Yeah, lots of adjustments, you know, changing course as we went along, because we had to respond and react to the challenges, the wicked problems that emerged and what came out of that. 

Julie Jones  30:47

And it felt like, though the wicked problems that we we kind of lent into, or we identified early on in the program, almost became the vehicle for a deeper level of understanding about the culture of the organization and the culture of leadership for us, and how that needed to shift. So we've mentioned, mentioned the word empowerment here, and that that was something that came up through, through the program, which wasn't one of the kind of the topics that was surfaced at the beginning, that came through those topics, really, and it started to feel like the program was starting to go a little bit deeper in terms of kind of what, what was beneath some of these, these challenges, or what would sort of support us to face into those more effectively, I think so. 

Sarah Fraser  31:27

I wonder what you think about the the role that the learning squads, so these are the small groups that people worked in to really sort of get into, what some of the issues, how, you know, how they were facing into some of these issues, but also, you know, their leadership practice. We often talk about practice, but you know how they show up as leaders in the context of those challenges and the things that we were discussing, yeah, as leadership. 

Julie Jones  31:55

Well I think, I think those are the, I think that was sometimes the thing that created that psychological safety, you know, that kind of started to kind of spread, I suppose, across the community, because it started in smaller pockets, you know, through the learning squads. And I think it then just, you know, developed and grew. So those relationships within the the those groups were formed, you know, and people were able to be quite vulnerable and be very open about the challenges that we're facing. Share that they had similar challenges, and the support they had from their colleagues on that as well. And I think that really made a difference. So we were looking at the kind of the intervention at a kind of individual, group and organizational level as well. So we kind of addressed it through different means. So so I think they, they really helped to develop that, and I think also the the approach of kind of developing their own practice based learning question as well, was a really good way of structuring that that puts their own personal development in the context of a bigger, sort of and wider challenge, I suppose, in wider context. 

Sarah Fraser  32:59

Yeah exactly. And the practice based learning question is that that an approach that we use which asks individuals to identify, you know, what's their learning edge? Yeah, for their leadership practice, and in service of what you know, in service of something, maybe change processes going on in the in their wider team or in the organization and in the context of what's going on. So it's, yeah, works at the different levels, but really puts, puts people's development in the context of what's going in the organization and what they're, you know, change, or what they're trying to achieve. 

Kerry Smith  33:33

And I think the the kind of peer to peer nature of those learning squads really supported that connectivity, yes, but also that kind of, you know, mutual challenge of each other, actually. And you know, just as on a on a large scale, we looked at, you know, the wicked problems, there were really little mini wicked problems that that, you know, individual leaders were sharing with each other and looking to kind of support each other on and I think that in itself, you know, develop that or flex that muscle of you know, you're not just a leader, you're also a developer. You know, you need to develop your yourself. You need to develop your help develop your peers. Yes, need to help develop the organization. So it kind of, you know, it played to that. And we've had such great feedback about how the learning squads went down. Some learning squads are so connected that they meet themselves without any further facilitation, they still exist, and they still give it to lots. And I still, I still see people coming to the opposite, giving it to the hugs. And I think, how did they know each other? And they say, oh they were in our learning squad completely different directions, starts to the country even, yeah, so, you know, and they will be so, you know, so connected. There feels so, such a camaraderie between them. And it's nice, because I know that they support each other with a challenge, everyday challenges. It's that kind of, my situation or leadership, isn't it? It's kind of, you know, let's look at challenges we're genuinely facing. And I think that's what's been quite unique about the program, actually, because it's, it's rather than, you know, we, Julie and I have been in learning and development for many years, and often it's about, you know, what? How much of that new skill or development have you transferred into into your job? How much have you taken away from that? And you're applying? You didn't have to think about that so much because it was all rooted in your job. 

Sarah Fraser  35:29

The reality of what was going on for people. I was gonna ask like, and what's your sense of, you know, a good few months on from the end the program, official program closing, what was your sense of like the shifts that you still notice, or the kind of journey that you can still feel like the leadership community is on, or like the broader, wider organization?

Julie Jones  35:52

So I think there's a number of things. I think we can say we've, we've noticed a shift on, I mean, we have obviously kind of done some more data collection in terms of what the shifts are, you know, from a percentage level. And so there's a, there's definitely more comfort leaning into ambiguity, which was obviously one of the main biggest leaps, 36% increase or something, in terms of people's confidence around that which was, which was massive, I think also people's sense of awareness of their own development was another kind of really significant leap. So in terms of reflection on their own leadership journey and their own leadership kind of sort of growth, I suppose you know, which I think continues, and I think that was one of the things that we were very conscious of with the program, is that it wasn't a program which had a beginning and an end, and that's it. It was actually, this was an ongoing journey and and that's something that I think we have started to notice more. So the the practices that we embedded in the program are continuing. So some of the kind of activities even down to kind of the tools and techniques that we use in some of the sessions. You know, leaders are picking those up and using those more the conversations that we're having, particularly, you know, in the topic around empowerment, for example, continue and they grow, and they kind of develop, and they kind of become more sophisticated and more deep in terms of the shift that we're starting to see. And I think just building, what Kerry was saying is those connections, we're seeing a lot more of those, you know, very visibly as well, in the in the in the offices that we see, but also just across the across the conversations that we're noticing. I think those are probably some of the main shifts that I'm seeing. 

Kerry Smith  37:32

Yeah, I agree. I think so too. I think that kind of approach, if you like, to looking at challenges together. You know, we're seeing much more like collaboration to kind of focus in on on challenges. I think some of the students mentioned some of the tools that we use during the program have really resonated with people. So things like the World Cafe, that includes inquiry events, they have popped up everywhere. 

Sarah Fraser  37:58

Inquiry events? 

Kerry Smith  37:59

Absolutely, they're still going strong! Writing on tables all the time, so so they're really good, really good to have.

Sarah Fraser  38:09

It's such a, yeah, it's such a mindset shift, isn't it? Really, I need to be a leader. I need to know the answers. I need to be able to, like, make a decision, to actually, I need to ask really good questions. I need to know how to work with colleagues, for, you know, various different parts of the organization, yeah, to inquire into a problem, to work out what the next step might need to be, not plan out exactly where we need to get to, and then try and get there, even if it might not be the right place anymore. No, it's a really, it's it really turns that sense of leadership on its head a little, I think. But my sense is that that was really embraced across the leadership community and throughout the program. I think it felt a bit confronting at first. Yes, what is this inquiry like? What did we actually get out of that? Did we make, did we make any decisions? Then who's taking the actions forward? Well, actually, it might just be about what conversations that leads to. Yeah, I need to pick up every action they see, where it goes. It's giving people a sense of direction, yeah, and it's, it's help people to coalesce around some key questions that are the most important ones, and that might be enough. How does that actually exist in the rest of the organisation, I really remember that

Kerry Smith  39:21

Yeah exactly. And I also think it's kind of the program has embedded some sort of key ways of approaching things and talking about things. So, you know, for example, we talked about bravery at the beginning here. You know, people are much more prepared now to kind of call that out, you know, question, I've been brave enough here, you know, where's the bravery in this, you know? So it's really important that we don't hide from that, and that we, you know, call it out. And I think, you know, when we were in the in the throes of the program, we're starting to talk about, you know, being brave. We started to talk about where things go wrong, and actually talking about, you know, research. You know, we're here to do research. You know, all our research is successful yet, you know, we need to do it, because it's experimentation. You've got to do it. Some will work, some won't. And it was like a revelation.

Julie Jones  39:27

That was a really kind of key comment, wasn't it one of the sessions, and it really kind of was quite an enlightening kind of comment, because they didn't see those failures as as mistakes or things that went wrong. They saw those as real benefits, that they failed because they learned something from that. And I think that really shifted things, and we started to see more more kind of open, vulnerable conversations being had. So we, you know, I think it's it prompted a fireside chat, didn't it? We did some of our kind of executive groups talking about a program that didn't go as well as we expected, or the direction we wanted it to, and that was that's been mentioned quite frequently, and we're starting to see more of those come through now where that openness around it didn't work and this is this was great about what we learned about that, you know, and seeing that as a positive. 

Sarah Fraser  41:11

But if they're not pushing the boundaries, if we're not asking the questions, if we're not trying to do things differently, then yeah, you're going to stand still like the permission to, yeah, inquired, to ask challenging questions, to actually think about trying to do things differently. But it might not always work.

Kerry Smith  41:30

And that experimentation, you know, that one of the key things was, let's try things. You have to do it for everybody. We can experiment over here, and then, you know, apply the lessons learned. But that kind of reflection, test and learn, you know, has become much more, you know, acceptable in a way of thinking about how we approach and it is, it is, you know, to be going into a very uncertain world. We've got to try things out. We don't necessarily know that things will work, so you've got to test them out. And that's what the program has given us, I think.

Sarah Fraser  41:57

But I feel like we we should definitely ask the question now of what didn't work so well from our perspective? Yeah, things are talking about failures, just in terms of the experience on the program, because that, I mean, there were, there were moments that were more difficult, yeah,

Julie Jones  42:14

yeah, things didn't work. I think, I think one of the things that really stuck in my mind from very early on in the conversations that we, I think, Mayvin set out the kind of principles around one of the inquiry events, I think, which was around whatever happens is meant to happen. Yes. And I really, I think that really stuck with me all the way through whatever people Exactly, exactly, are the right people to be there? Yeah, absolutely. So I think that kind of stuck with me all the way through. So even then, when things were tricky and were difficult, and I think there was often that tension with the things that we've discussed already, around that kind of ambiguity, and then a sort of desire, perhaps for more certainty. And there was always that tension sort of all the way through. I think that was probably the most difficult thing, but that that was always going to be difficult, because that was the shift we were trying to make. And I think if it had been easy, we wouldn't have been really shifting it as much as we needed to. I think so I think it the most, I suppose the most impact you have is when it is a little bit difficult, actually, even a lot difficult. So I think those those times where it was more challenging, it felt that that was that meant that we were really making some strides forward. And I remember speaking to Ash, who was leading the programme with us at the time. And you know, those moments were quite unsettling, I think, you know, and then did it did kind of have crisis of confidence, like, are we doing the right thing? Yeah. And I remember always saying to me that just have faith. Have faith that we will get through this, and this is the right thing to do. Have faith in the programme. Have faith in what we're trying to achieve. And if it is difficult, that's not a bad thing that is meant to happen. And that's part of easy. Yeah. It shouldn't really easy. You know,

Sarah Fraser  43:59

I definitely lost a little bit of sleep over it. But I mean, I hope that's a sign that I was very invested in it as we were, yeah, as we were doing the programme

Kerry Smith  44:07

Keep the faith. That was Julie's mantra.

Sarah Fraser  44:14

James often saying that, to me as well, keep the faith. We're on the right track. This is these the right conversations happening. Yeah, you're right. You're right.

Kerry Smith  44:20

Yeah, it did. I would say them in the middle of the of the year. It felt challenging because, because, as Julie said, it was, it was ambiguous by its very nature. But unfortunately, you know, the skeptics, the skeptics amongst the senior leaders who were like, you know, when are we going to get the the our workshops. When are we going to get the learning, yes, from this, you know, when are we, you're going to, are we going to have more in depth knowledge sharing? You know? Where are we getting our knowledge from? So, you know, that's when it was, it was kind of feeling tough because we were the same time identifying and facing into wicked problems that didn't have any clear resolutions. At the same time as them saying, I'm not sure I'm really seeing where the learning is going to be in this programme, you know. And that felt that was when we all were all wobbling, and we're all feeling a bit, you know, need to keep the faith. But what was interesting is we just needed to get people over that, and then, and then start to see, actually, I'm really pleased you've asked that question, because it gives us a chance to talk about why, why we're here, you know, why we're in this situation. It's because this isn't easy. And it would be very easy for us to put you on a programme, you know, that just, you know, put you in a classroom type setting, and then you came out and transferred 20% of it, you know, it'd be very easy to do, but actually, we've decided that this is more than just a development programme. It's actually a change programme. And I think when we started to talk about that and explore what that meant, people started to the penny started to drop, and people said, oh, okay, yes, I can see now this is shifting us in the way that we operate as an organization, the way that we think, way that we behave with each other, way we support each other, where we have conversations, where we have conversations, the way we face into challenges. This is a shift. And I think people started to see that we then had those same skeptics would come and say, I've had an idea, or I've got a great person to come and talk to us all about this. I've seen another organisation do something. I'd like to run a master class. Do you mind if we take this and run that? I'm like, please bring it on. Yes, yeah. So it just started to turn the corner,

Sarah Fraser  46:37

and that moment where it turned the corner, because it was about halfway through the programme. Yeah, we've done a lot around understanding, working in complexity, understanding like, leading with like, within ambiguity, opening up this, this idea of inquiring into wicked problems, and then I remember what and what you've just described. We had to tell the story of what we've been doing and where we were, what I suppose, the skills that we're trying to develop, that those skills of leading through, right? We needed to tell a story halfway through the programme. And then, interestingly, we then decided that actually being able to tell those stories throughout a period of change, and being able to do that as a leader was like a kind of skill to hone in on. Yes, we then embedded that later on in the programme. 

Kerry Smith  47:25

That's right, yeah, it was a storytelling. 

Sarah Fraser  47:29

Our experience of doing the programme and the sense of what people needed actually then fed into something we could see was really useful. Yeah, for the whole community in the programme.

Kerry Smith  47:40

and if you remember, also, we didn't have a kind of prescribed list of master classes, either. So we punctuated the programme, didn't we, with that kind of intellectual input through master classes or experience from other organisations and so on. But we didn't have a prescribed list of what we were going to do. We really played that according to what was emerging the programme. So again, ambiguity , I'm wondering how we got through this Julie. But yeah, so you know, actually that that was great because it allowed us to, like you say, bring in, we brought in a master class on storytelling, so we were able to react and respond to what was emerging for the programme. I think that's also what we're able to take forward, and we've continued with as well. So we've got since, that "just in time". Oh, actually, the programme's finished. But, you know, there's something over here that people are talking about and is, is, you know, might be attention emerging, or might just be something we feel like, AI, or something, you know, we actually feel, oh, let's get a master class. Let's do a master class on that. Because we know that we we've got used to that now, and we know that that actually gives us a lot of input and intelligence that we can actually work with. Yeah.

Sarah Fraser  48:58

So are there any other threads that is, that you're still working on as a result from, I feel that you mentioned quite a lot already, but just sort of thought we'd, I'd check in. Are there any other threads that you feel like, you know, connected back to the programme, things that you're still developing and working on, feeding into the future of BHF leadership?

Julie Jones  49:19

Yeah, I think, I mean, there's been a few things that have surfaced from that, some some on a very practical level, in terms of the topics that we were discussing and how that's kind of evolved, some more fundamental to our ways of working. So we've got, you know, we've talked around a number of those, those themes already, some of the practices that we've kind of employed, like as COVID, was just talking about some of the inquiry conversations that we're having, definitely the theme around bravery is surfacing a lot more. We're starting to kind of hear that part of the conversation quite frequently. And I think kind of just looking at the community, the leadership, community themselves, and understanding, what are we here for? What's our role? What's are we accountable for? How are we leaning into our leadership responsibilities here, leading the organization rather than and being more present, I think, more active in that role. I think we're seeing a lot more of that coming up, and I think we're, we're encouraging that to happen even more, and that that topic around empowerment, I think, is still very much a current problem. Very much at the forefront.

Sarah Fraser  50:24

 It's a wicked problem, that many organizations grapple with, 

Julie Jones  50:29

and I think it's the tension sometimes that that that brings and really just trying to navigate what does that actually mean, and what does it mean in the different contexts and the different challenges that the organization is facing into, because we there's something about flexing what that looks like in different circumstances, I think so.

Sarah Fraser  50:43

And it's going to be flexing further as you know, we're looking at a future workforce change organizations. Gen A is just around the corner, coming in with all that, growing up with AI, you know, it's going to really change people come into a workplace and what an organization looks like, Yeah? And empowerment and leadership needed in the face of that, yeah, look, Yeah, different. I

Kerry Smith  51:09

think it could look very different actually. I think it's evolving very much a you know, evolving space, actually. But I also think the other thing that to add to Julie's list, there are things that we're continuing, is that kind of peer to peer. So as a senior leadership community, the benefits we've got from bringing people together in the way that we have. We want to continue, and we are continuing. We've got various members of the senior leadership group that are working with us now to identify how we will keep that group connected and informed, but very much kind of peer to peer led. So rather than it feeling like always the chief exec or the exec group that are saying, Let's get together, it can be the senior leadership community deciding themselves that they want to be deciding a

Sarah Fraser  51:53

reason. We need a conversation around how who wants to come together to chew over a problem together.

Kerry Smith  51:59

 Yeah and what do we want our learning input to be for them to decide together what that could be. So yeah, so it has shifted a way of operating, and it has helped us to all embrace it. As Julie says, we've seen such an increase in the level of comfort with ambiguity as a result of the program. And I think that's that's a big win for us.

Sarah Fraser  52:24

What are you excited about, then, in thinking about the future of BHF, and you know, you do have an amazing leadership community that's going to take you there, but what when you sort of think about your leadership community, and, you know, looking ahead, what gets you... What are you excited about?

Julie Jones  52:39

I think, I suppose for me, I'm excited about the unknown, if I'm honest, you know, I think you know, there may have been, in the past a fear factor about what's known, so this desire to plan for something. But I think now it feels like, you know, there is a sense of confidence about, you know, whatever you throw at us, we'll we'll face, we'll tackle, yeah, and we're equipped to do that, and we have confidence in our in our community, not just ourselves, but in our community, yeah it's not an individual that has to tackle that. So I suppose, you know, I'm excited about what I don't know, I suppose, or I don't know what's coming. 

Sarah Fraser  53:18

you don't say that in all parts of life,

Julie Jones  53:20

no not generally,

Kerry Smith  53:24

yes. Similar to, actually. I mean, I think the future is very exciting. I think that the, you know, you just talked about multi generational workforces, you know, we know we've got skill scarcity coming. We know there's a demand for flexibility, but there's also a demand for, you know, contact and connection with workplaces and communities. So I think there's a lot to play for. And I think we are, we're well set up for it now, you know, I think we we're getting our leaders are thinking about it. We think very future focus, very kind of outward, much more than we ever did. And we're kind of, you know, looking and preparing ourselves for what the future might bring us, but also knowing that we won't know until we get there, sort of thing. So I think, you know, I think that's an interesting prospect. You know, for us, shifting workplaces is going to be interesting for us all. And I think we're well set up for it as leaders 

Sarah Fraser  54:23

and exploring all of those ideas, experimenting into those big questions already. Yeah, leadership are, really doing that now. Yeah,

Kerry Smith  54:33

exactly, yeah, it's good. 

Sarah Fraser  54:35

And I feel like we should mention the awards that, the programme is up for, which is really, congratulations to you all, and you know, it's been brilliant to be part of it. But do you want to mention what what they are and what might be what we're on the cards for? 

Julie Jones  54:55

Yeah. So, we've been nominated for two business culture awards. So. One for future workplace readiness. And interesting, considing what we just talked about, and best NGO, not for profit organization, for business culture as well. So, so we'll find out, kind of mid November, what the outcome of that is. But I think even just the just the kind of recognition of of the kind of work that's gone into that is is really rewarding in itself, I think. So we're really excited by that.

Sarah Fraser  55:26

I feel like we should mention again, Ash Thomas. The lovely Ash! who, you know, put all of himself into this programme.

Kerry Smith  55:34

We couldn't have done it without Ash.  Ash has been absolutely awesome, 

Sarah Fraser  55:38

and he was very much, very much part of the team, yeah, and made it happen,

Julie Jones  55:43

yeah. He put his heart and soul into this, and it really, really shone through.

Sarah Fraser  55:50

He's definitely in there.

Kerry Smith  55:52

 Oh, he'll be there. He'll be there.

Sarah Fraser  55:53

So just thinking and closing if, if there were other teams like yours, whether it's not for profit, or whether it's, public sector private, but they're kind of thinking actually, how do we, how do we create that shift in our leadership team? What? What? What kind of advice, or maybe not advice that sounds a bit heavy, but what insight would you give them from this experience over the last couple of years? What would you encourage them to question or look at having gone through, you know, the programme or this change process that British Heart Foundation has just been through?

Kerry Smith  56:33

Well, I would say, be brave. Yeah, yeah, because it's it as I say, you know, it's easy to... there are so many different leadership development programmes available on the market, and it's easy to go with what you know, but actually, I think you know that co creation, having a partner that you can work with, it's going to listen to you, take in where you're at, as an organization, and help you to...  challenge you as well, and help you to think about what you need, going forwards and co-creating that with you is really, the important about that, an, keeping the faith as Julie, 

Julie Jones  56:53

you just stole my line. 

Kerry Smith  56:57

Sorry you say it Julie i'm going to get it printed on a t shirt.

57:19

It's true though

Julie Jones  57:25

Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's definitely about having that curiosity and being comfortable with the uncomfortable. I think, you know, I think that's, that's something that, we embedded through the programme, and it's something we had, we challenged ourselves with as well. 

Sarah Fraser  57:41

you really did, 

Julie Jones  57:42

 yeah, so and keep the faith.

Kerry Smith  57:48

Okay, love it. We'll have matching T shirts made

Sarah Fraser  57:51

For the awards ceremony! No nice dresses,

Kerry Smith  58:01

absolutely well,

Julie Jones  58:02

can I ask you a question? Yeah, so, I mean, obviously, we've been on this journey together, haven't we, you know, and we've, we've learned through the process ourselves, you know, we've, you know, been challenged through it. The the leaders have all learned and had their own individual learning journeys through that. I'm just curious, did did you, Mayvin, have the similar kind of experience, and what would you have say you've learned through that you're working with us?

Sarah Fraser  58:25

I mean, absolutely yes, it was, it was a brilliant.... brilliantly different programme for us as well. I mean, we do lots around practice-based learning and using action learning approaches and using inquiry. But what was different about being able to do it with you guys at the British Heart Foundation overall was really being able to partner and do the co creation together. You can't.... Not every organization is ready to do that. So it's, it's kind of, how much containment and how much ambiguity can you work with when you're partnering with an organization? And what I really learned in that, in that process of working with you, was to work with a greater level of ambiguity, actually, and that ability to be creative as we went and and more responsive and it....  that was, it was more challenging in some ways, but I think the programme was richer as a result, but there was some learning about creating just enough containment, yes, so that point that we talked about around getting to that halfway point in the programme, just thinking, actually a bit more containment is needed. We need to tell the story and give a clear sense of the journey we've been on so far and where we're going to, and that sense of, yes, keep the faith, but you need to give enough containment to help people keep the faith as you go through

Kerry Smith  59:57

you do 

Sarah Fraser  59:58

so it was, yeah, getting that balance right. I think there was some learning in there. But we did it, we did it together. But there was a bit, there was the adjustments as we went, to get that right. I think, yeah, great. Good question.

Kerry Smith  1:00:11

 you're welcome.

Sarah Fraser  1:00:13

Thank you. Thank you. That's been great. It feels slightly like going back in time. Really good to go back over it and feel positive, warm and fuzzy, but thank you for all the work you put in to the programme and and for the podcast today.

Kerry Smith  1:00:31

Thank you. 

Julie Jones  1:00:32

Thank you

Kerry Smith  1:00:33

so much. Yeah, it's been fantastic. 

Julie Jones  1:00:34

Enjoyed it.

Claire Newell  1:00:35

Thank you so much for listening to us today, and we hope to see you next time. Take care. Bye. Bye, you.