Conversations with Tony Nicholls - Episode 3: Tony & Carolyn Parker

'Our' Tony Nicholls has decided to stop working from the end of March 2025 he still finds it hard to use the R word, so we decided to make the most of him these last few weeks that we have him and try to bottle his wisdom and experience, slash milk him for content before he goes. We will be releasing one of these short 10 minute episodes every week for the next eight weeks, which will take us up to his last week with us. Each episode will focus on a different topic, a different element of his time at Mayvin or his career at large.

In today's episode, Tony is joined by our principal consultant, Carolyn Parker and Carolyn wanted to quiz Tony on his blunders and blinders. So blunders being things that have gone wrong over the years, and blinders being things that have gone exceptionally well. 

Please do feel free to get in touch with us or Tony directly, if you'd like to pass on any well wishes for his R word. 

Thanks so much for listening! Keep in touch:

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Transcript

Claire Newell 00:09

Hello and a warm welcome to the Mayvin podcast. This episode is part of a special, new mini series called Conversations with Tony. Our Tony Nicholls has decided to stop working from the end of March 2025, he still finds it hard to use the R word, so we decided to make the most of him these last few weeks that we have him, and try to bottle his wisdom and experience, slash milk him for content before he goes. We're  releasing one of these short 10 minute episodes every week for the next eight weeks, which will take us up to his last week with us. Each episode will focus on a different topic, a different element of his time at Mayvin or his career at large. There might be questions that we've always wanted to ask, or topics that feel pertinent at such a time of reflection. Please do feel free to get in touch with us or Tony directly if you'd like to pass on any well wishes for his R word. In today's episode, Tony is joined by our principal consultant, Carolyn Parker and Carolyn wanted to quiz Tony on his blunders and blinders. So blunders being things that have gone wrong over the years, and blinders being things that have gone exceptionally well. Here's a good listen. I'll let you crack on

Carolyn Parker  00:00

So Tony, this is part of a series of conversations that we're having with you before you finish your time at Mayvin. A chance for us to gather all your wisdom, all your experience, take all the lessons that you've learned, get everything we possibly can from you before you finish. Today's conversation is particularly, I'm particularly interested in blunders and blinders from your career. So okay, and when things have gone wrong, kind of what, what's been behind that? What have you learned from it? And when things have gone really well for you in your career, what's been, what's been the key thing that's enabled that? So, yeah let's start with blunders. What comes to mind?

Tony Nicholls  00:44

Okay, I think, I think what comes to mind there are those moments, you know, earlier in my career, you know. So it's lessons learned that I haven't repeated, hopefully, later in my career, but early in my career, where I would let a short falling capability or conduct go unnoticed or unchallenged. So somebody who isn't who's struggling to perform through a capability, lack of capability, you know, not picking that up soon enough, because that's not fair on them, and it's not fair on the rest of the team. So, you know, not noticing that, and that and that means other people are picking up slack, and they get resentful about that. Perhaps the you know, the worst of all of those is allowing poor conduct to go to go unchallenged. And again, the resentment builds up very quickly within the team. And one of the, perhaps the biggest blunder I've made in that space was when I first became a manager, was somebody saying to me, Tony, this, you know, you need to address this. This is what's happening. This is the impact. And I made it. I made excuses, and, you know, didn't want to lean into the difficult conversation with that particular person, because, you know, I like them. They were, they were a nice person, but they were doing things that weren't right. And, you know, I got somebody come back to me and say, Tony, you need to deal with this now otherwise. So I then did, and, you know, yeah, so yeah, they're probably the things I've learned most from in terms of, if your team is feeling like somebody isn't pulling their weight, either because of lack of capability, and it's not their fault, or, you know, they're doing something that isn't helpful, then you know, we need to, we need to address those very quickly. And I see that a lot in other organizations, dysfunctionality and challenges around team dynamics are often because somebody somewhere either isn't pulling their weight or doing their bit or is being deliberately Machiavellian in their approach and or they're all lacking their lacking capability. 

Carolyn Parker  02:35

Yeah, and what, what do you think's behind that? I mean, from your own experience and from the work that you you've done with clients over the years. Why are those conversations being ducked? If you like,

Tony Nicholls  02:49

I think cultural expectations. So it's almost like there isn't a cultural expectation to have those conversations. And role modeling from the top, often find that those conversations are least held at the top of organizations because they're more difficult to have and more challenging to have. And we're human beings, and we don't like to upset people, and they are challenging conversations that essentially are a reflection on our leadership. This is happening on our watch, so therefore this is a reflection on us. So there's an element of shame in that that comes up, and that's a very, very difficult emotion to deal with. So I think, I think for lots of reasons, for basic human nature and also cultural issues, they're avoided, and I don't, I'm not sure that there's a enough actual basic training and development around having those kinds of conversations. I was lucky enough to have to have had that training, so I was ducking the issue because of the former reasons, you know, I didn't want to have difficult conversations. I knew how to have them training. I knew how to structure a conversation I was working in HR, you know. So I knew what that looked like, and it was about me developing the courage to do so,

Carolyn Parker  04:05

Yeah. and there's something I think, like you said, it's it impacts on the wider team then, doesn't it? People pick it up and they start to become resentful. But I think there's also something about actually being fair and straight with the individual in question, of course, of course, kind of that adult to adult relationship to have the conversation, which you say is, is not always easy and often, kind of maybe taps into some of our own stuff around you know, what's it like to have conflict with somebody? What's it like to end up a conversation and not quite know where it's going to go. Yeah, how do I do this in a way that's both both direct and straight, but also hold some compassion for the individual as well, and creates, you know, the right environment for our relationship to continue after that, that challenging conversation

Tony Nicholls  04:57

Absolutely. And, you know, I don't know the statistics, but. So I'm guessing nine out of 10 times that, you know, that ends in a good end result, either we develop the capability and the person performs better, or we find a better role suited to them and or the person who's who's who's having shown some challenging behavior has helped to rectify that, understand the impact they're having on other people. So nine, nine times out of 10 that that that works and strengthens the team and strengthens the relationship, if anything.

Carolyn Parker  05:25

Yeah, so what about the the other side of the coin? Then what about the blinders when what have you been most proud of, or what's given you the most satisfaction through your career? 

Tony Nicholls  05:34

Well, it's been there has. You know, there have been several highlights in my career in terms of the kind of organizations I've worked with and the kind of things I think I've achieved, but every time, every time I've recognized that that's a team effort. So for me, the blinders have always been around making sure I've got a really good team around me, and then I'm well connected with my colleagues, even if they're not in my direct team. So developing relationships, and, above all else, making sure the capability is there and the camaraderie and purpose is there such that people know what they're there to do. So is the capability there that you need in the team? Are the relationships good enough and strong enough? Is the purpose and goal clear for everybody to look at? Whilst there may be what I call distributed capabilities, so everybody's involved in this, no one person is responsible for achieving the goal, they are nevertheless still each clearly accountable for their part in that process. And I think when you get that right, then you can absolutely deliver a blinder in terms of delivering projects and great projects on time to cost, sometimes ahead of it, and sometimes come up with massively creative ways of moving forward. So I think if, if there's one thing I would carry forward, and I would encourage other leaders and managers think about is, never stop developing your team. Never stop developing yourself. Capability Development is not a once and done journey. It is continuous. It's a continuous process, coaching, mentoring, exposure to good quality training and development programs, exposure to challenging and exciting projects so that people are stretched, exposure to different contexts and different different organizations sometimes. They're all things that I think really, we really need to pay attention to, and perhaps, I don't think we pay enough attention to in many organizations.

Carolyn Parker  07:25

Yeah, I think it's, it's really easy, isn't it, when in the busyness of organizational life to to find it hard to carve out the time actually for that development. And you mentioned a couple of things there, coaching, mentoring, capability, programs. What? What? What have you seen that's been most impactful in that space do you think? 

Tony Nicholls  07:44

I think, to be frank, it's the kind of work that we do at Mayvin. So the kind of development programs that have been transformational for me and critical for me have have been twofold, I think one of one in terms of formal programs, it's where I'm work. You know, you get to be in a room with a group of peers and or colleagues who and you are asked by a facilitator to reflect on practice, to think about what you're already good at, an appreciative approach to capability development. What are you already good at, and how can we build from there? And it's, it's embedded in some real work. So it's not a theoretical piece that's done off, off the side of the you know, in terms of a distance from the real work. And I think the second piece for me is in there is that it doesn't have to be a formal development program, but I think what organizations miss so much is the opportunity to encourage learning in the real work. So it's not part of the formal development program, but it's an opportunity to reflect whilst you're doing the work. So pause. What are we doing well? How are we working together? What can we do even better? Not a formal project review after the project's finished, but an in program as you're doing it, constant process of reflecting on practice and learning from practice in whilst you're in the thick of the real work. I think that's hugely important. It's what we encourage within Mayvin, and I think it is a missed opportunity in many organizations, because you don't actually need to carve out much time to do that.

Carolyn Parker  09:11

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think one of the things we do really well is help people to develop that practice. Help people to develop that muscle. 

Tony Nicholls  09:17

We do, we do. 

Carolyn Parker  09:17

And then I think people go on to continue a practice of like you say, reflecting and thinking about what they could do differently, what they might shift, and trying something out, and then those cycles of iteration. So

Tony Nicholls  09:31

I think a critical thing for me that I've really learned since I've come from Mayvin is the importance and value of individuals coming together in groups to do that. Doing it on your own is one thing, but getting into a group of people in like an action learning set or an action research group, is massively powerful in terms of the different perspectives and challenges that are brought to you in terms of your thinking around your practice. 

Carolyn Parker  09:55

Yeah, so I think one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation with you Tony about kind of blunders and blinders is, you know, when I joined the team last year, one of the things that that struck me really early on in our team meeting is every week we do celebrations, shout outs and blunders. And I'm really familiar, and have had a practice as a line manager and as a leader of the celebrations and shout outs, but the blunders really caught me, because it was like we were genuinely inviting space for you know, we mess up. We get it wrong sometimes. So let's share that. Let's laugh about it together. Yeah, maybe you might share a few of your regular because you're a feature. It's fair to say those weeks

Tony Nicholls  10:42

I can't share client related blunders. Of course I can't, but tell you what, I'll tell you one that's recurring and actually had to share with the marketing team this morning is that I am forever getting lost in hotel corridors. So particular, if you're listening, Premier Inn Hub hotels, their basement rooms I've got, they're just like mazes, and I am forever getting lost in those. So most weeks when I'm in London, I'm staying in a Premier Inn Hub, I'll find myself lost. So that seems to be my perennial blunder

Carolyn Parker  11:14

Yeah and I mean, it's a bit of fun, but I think there's also something really important there that makes makes it okay to fess up. Yeah, if you've messed up, find a way to make light of it. Because I think, you know, people genuinely we don't. No one wants to mess up. We always feel bad when we do. 

Tony Nicholls  11:31

Yeah, well, there's something about role modeling humility, yeah, vulnerability, especially from someone who's, you know, a senior member of the team, and it brings that human humor into the context as well. So I think it's a beautiful way of developing, you know, psychological safety in a fun way is to is to share those blunders. 

Carolyn Parker  11:52

Yeah, for sure. Well, we, when the time comes Tony, we will miss you losing your way in in the corridors of hotels.

Tony Nicholls  11:59

If you don't hear from me from six months, will you send out a search party?

Carolyn Parker  12:03

Well, listen. Thanks very much for the conversation. 

Tony Nicholls  12:08

Thank you, Carolyn 

Carolyn Parker  12:09

And yeah, hope that we stay in touch. 

Tony Nicholls  12:13

We will all right. Thank you.