Conversations with Tony Nicholls - Episode 7: Tony & James Traeger

Our Tony Nicholls has decided to stop working from the end of March 2025, he still finds it hard to use the R word, so we decided to make the most of him these last few weeks that we have him, and try to bottle his wisdom and experience, slash milk him for content before he goes. We're releasing these short 10 minute episodes for the next eight weeks, which will take us up to his last week with us. Each episode will focus on a different topic, a different element of his time at Mayvin or his career at large. 

In today's final episode of conversations with Tony, Tony is joined by James Traeger. James has recently moved into a new role as non Executive Chair of Mayvin, as a co founder and director since 2010, James has been instrumental in shaping Mayvin identity practice and growth. In this candid conversation, he shares insights into his new role and what it entails. James and Tony also reflect openly on their career transitions, one having a shift in gears and the other coming to a full stop. It's a daunting process, but they both recognise a new found release of energy. 

Please do feel free to get in touch with us or Tony directly, if you'd like to pass on any well wishes for his R word. 

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Transcript

Claire Newell  00:09

Hello and a warm welcome to the Mayvin podcast. This episode is part of a special, new mini series called Conversations with Tony. Our Tony Nicholls has decided to stop working from the end of March 2025, he still finds it hard to use the R word, so we decided to make the most of him these last few weeks that we have him, and try to bottle his wisdom and experience, slash milk him for content before he goes. We will be releasing these short 10 minute episodes for the next eight weeks, which will take us up to his last week with us. Each episode will focus on a different topic, a different element of his time at Mayvin, or his career at large. In today's final episode of conversations with Tony, Tony is joined by James Traeger. James has recently moved into a new role as non Executive Chair of Mayvin, as a co founder and director since 2010, James has been instrumental in shaping Mayvin's identity, practice and growth. In this candid conversation, he shares insights into his new role and what it entails. James and Tony also reflect openly on their career transitions, one having a shift in gears and the other coming to a full stop. It's a daunting process, but they both recognise a new found release of energy. Enjoy the conversation. Cheers.

Tony Nicholls  01:29

Hello, James. 

James Traeger  01:30

Hi Tony. 

Tony Nicholls  01:31

So, so this is, I think, a final one of a series of podcasts we've been doing recently, prior to me leaving Mayvin and retiring. There you go. I used the R word, but it's also an opportunity for us to have a conversation on the basis that you're changing your status within Mayvin as well. 

James Traeger  01:51

Yeah, my role's changing 

Tony Nicholls  01:53

Yeah, your role is changing. Having been one of the founders of Mayvin, that's possibly even more significant than than me going so it's an opportunity for us to maybe to have quick conversation around you know, what's going on, how we feeling about that, and perhaps what it says about Mayvin's practice.

James Traeger  02:08

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So you're finishing at the end of March, and at the end of February, actually, so sooner than that, I'm shifting my role to formally become the non Executive Chair of Mayvin. So essentially a board like role, although with Mayvin, it's a little bit more the boundaries are a little bit more fuzzy than that, but essentially my role will be to support the team and support the senior leadership team to develop a business, support the consultancy team to develop in their practice, support thought leadership. So that already sounds like quite a lot, but, 

Tony Nicholls  02:55

Yes, it does 

James Traeger  02:57

But in some ways it's like, it's like a stepping back role, yeah, I'm hesitate, I hesitate to call it a grandfathering type role, right? That is slightly kind of what it feels like. So getting my arms around everything, really, and support, supporting Mayvin to to develop and, yeah, I think for both of us, it's sort of opening up a bit of space, isn't it? For others to step into

Tony Nicholls  03:25

Yeah. And for me, a lot more space, because I'm finishing for the moment, you know, at least for the foreseeable future, stopping completely work and, you know, retiring, definitely. I mean, how are you feeling about your transition? 

James Traeger  03:41

Yeah, it feels like the right time. It feels like the the the I've noticed in making the decision, even before it's happened, quite a lot of energy is being kind of released by so I feel kind of energised, so that feels like we're making the right move. Because I noticed that in others as well, there's a sense in all the shifts that we're making, yeah, there's a kind of an energy that's been released. 

Tony Nicholls  04:15

Definitely, I've noticed that too. 

James Traeger  04:18

And I mean in terms of my own practice, years and years ago, over 30 years ago, when I was first kind of introduced to this world of OD and development and people, I remember there were some very inspiring practitioners, very inspiring teachers. But I also remember that there were a couple of people who kind of outstayed their, their well gone past their sell by date, if I can put it, and were phoning it in, you know, they weren't, they weren't kind of really in, in it. It was more kind of going through the, you know, going through the motions. And I always swore that I would never be like that. You know, I always said I'm never going to be like that and, and I don't think I am like that yet, no, but I think, you know, I think for me, there's a is the sigmoid curve notion of change, you kind of jump the curve before it starts to kind of, yeah, go down and that's what it feels a bit like,

Tony Nicholls  05:22

Yeah similar, similar for me. In some ways, I feel like I've reached a peak in terms of my career and OD practice and the kind of value I'm adding to individuals and to organisations. I still feel there's lots more I could learn, lots more. I've always thought of people like yourself and Martin and Sarah, sort of 10 years always, always, 10 years ahead of me. I'm trying to catch you up. But I also feel like it's just feels like the right time to go. My energy was low through through illness and, you know, possibly a bit of burnout, so I need to rest. And through some coaching that I've had, came to the conclusion that actually, it's a it's more than a rest. I think I just want to stop working now and put my energies into other things.

James Traeger  06:09

So, so that's interesting, because for me, it's sort of shifting gears, and for you, it's a stop. So that's quite they're quite different kind of route maps, aren't they towards they are they are transition. I mean, we're very similar age. Yes, we both had big birthdays. We have, as my mother would have said, I'm 30 down each side. So, you know, it's, it feels like it's a good good time, yeah, to do that, and the world feels like it's changing as well hugely. Yeah. So yeah, it feels like good timing. Yeah. Well, I think it says something about Mayvin as well that I think we're quite keen to always be changing and evolving and not getting stuck in a certain way of doing things. 

Tony Nicholls  07:04

Yeah, that's one my sense of, one of the things that's really struck me about when I first came to Mayvin with that we really do try to walk the talk. You know, the kind of advice we're offering clients and the spaces and we're offering clients and the practices were suggesting they follow. We do really try to do that, and we don't always get it right, but we're always, you know, you've always said Mayvin is one big experiment, and that is absolutely the case. So it feels right that two of the more senior, longer in the tooth people, are making a good decision to do what they need to do, which, as you say, create space in the organisation, creates a release of energy in the organisation. It's amazing. You know, we're we're well respected, and we do good work, but we're still, currently still a positive thing that's happening in terms of the space that's being created. So yeah, and what if more organisations could do more of that? I think they get stuck in their pyramid structures very often.

James Traeger  08:01

Yeah, people wait for ages and ages until other people move on or. It feels, it feels like the right thing to do. And it does feel scary, I'd say, and have a bit more space in my life. And, you know, sometimes I think we get busy because we're a bit frightened of of of, of the space, yeah. You know, in Gestalt we talk in Gestalt psychology, that idea of the fertile void, yeah. And one of the things that we don't do is open up the space, because we're a bit, you know, in organisational change, and allow things to complete, and then just stay in a moment of pause. You know, our colleague, our former colleague, Tony Fraser, would always say that that's a very terrifying and the space for for people in organisations is to kind of just stop and pause and reflect on what's happened.

Tony Nicholls  08:56

We're addicted to doing, addicted to doing, yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I'm not moving towards the many things I could move towards, like committees and support, you know, groups I could be a member of. I'm literally just thinking I'm going to pick up my camera and walk around the Fells and take some pictures and maybe do the odd trip and go see some family a bit more often, but that's about it, I really want to feel what that void feels like, and and see what, see what comes towards me, if anything, yeah.

James Traeger  09:29

That's, that's, you know, it's a brave thing to do. I think there was a poem I remember that often used to get read on personal development programmes. I don't really remember much about it, but I remember there was one line in it which was "to risk my significance in order to live", which I always thought was a very profound kind of insight, that actually you risk, you know, your significance in opening up a bit of space to see what life feels like.

Tony Nicholls  10:05

I guess that's why it's taken me a while to get used to the R word, yeah, because the R word is, well, who are you? You know, when that question comes up, so what do you do? Nothing.

James Traeger  10:18

Yes. So, yeah. So, I mean, it's very exciting. I mean, one thing I would say, although I'm still going to be hanging around Mayvin like Banquo's ghost or in the background, supporting supporting people, yeah, we're going to miss you.

Tony Nicholls  10:35

Thank you. I'm going to miss Mayvin. I'm going to miss you and the rest of the team. It's a great family, community, group of colleagues, definitely,

James Traeger  10:45

Yeah, and it's been a very, you know, we've, I've seen you develop hugely, shifted in your practice. Practice based learning in many ways, was kind of what we hatched between us in, in the spaces of you kind of really getting into Mayvin and yeah, and we had all, we had all sorts of different ways of expressing it, 

Tony Nicholls  11:09

Absolutely

James Traeger  11:10

Coming up, coming up, essentially, with where we are now, obviously, with now, with the mission led work that we do, the bite sized, you know, the learning that we offer and that kind of thing. It's been, you know, it's been a, in the immortal words of Vinny Jones, it's been emotional.

Tony Nicholls  11:29

It has indeed. And on that note, thank you, James. I'll see you soon. 

James Traeger  11:35

Yeah, see you.

Claire Newell  11:38

Thank you so much for listening to us today, and we hope to see you next time, take care. Bye, bye.